Can We See Through God’s Eyes?

Last week, we looked at a possible definition of faith as trying to see things, people, and life the way God sees them. Living a life of faith would thus mean understanding our lives as God would have us to understand them. This definition seemed to resonate with some, was interesting to others, and fundamentally foreign to a few.

How is it possible to see things as God sees them? After all, we are not God. And as Isaiah 55 tells us, his ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts. And frankly, according to verse 9 of Isaiah 55, they’re not even close. The text says that the distance between God’s thoughts and our thoughts is as high as the heavens are above the earth. We’re talking, frankly, light years of difference. How is it possible then to see things as God sees them?

Of course, we can’t see things completely as God sees them. But is it possible that through the lens of faith, we can see life differently, at least get a hint of God’s perspective on our lives? The stories of faith that we’ve studied in Hebrews 11 thus far give us a glimpse, I think, of faith as possibly being defined as seeing things as God sees them. Mankind sees things as cause and effect. If this then that. Life is consequential, and predictable in some ways. Some actions will bring the expected reactions. We want answers. “Why me, Lord? Why now? Why this way?” Our view is finite, and therefore limited. Our view is time bound. God’s perspective, on the other hand, is infinite, eternal and timeless.

The story of Lazarus that we looked at last week shows utterly different perspectives between the disciples, Mary and Martha, and Jesus when it comes to time, health, life, and death. As I’ve said so many times, we have questions for which we want answers. But the Bible is more a book of questions that it is of answers. Mankind asks questions, and God usually responds with more questions. God, it seems, is not the Answer Man; God is the questioner. This is one of the major differences in perspective between God and Man. Living a life of faith is living a life where all questions are not answered. living a life of faith is to be willing to ponder the great questions of life but without certainty of answers.

What is certain in the life of faith is the goodness of God:

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28)

And we have God’s assurance that despite our questions being unanswered, God is involved with our lives for our own good and for our welfare:

“For I know the plans that I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans for prosperity and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.” (Jeremiah 29:11)

The story of Job might be the best illustration of a life of faith. Job demands from God an explanation for the troubles of his life. His friends advance the argument that his troubles are a consequence of his actions—of things that he’s either done or hasn’t done, his way of life, cause and effect, they argue. He rejects that notion. He can’t quite put it all together, but he’s trying to see things as God sees them. Despite his demands for secure explanations, God responds instead with only questions: 77 of them thundering questions about creation, about the universe, and the mysteries of life.

By faith job comes to see things as God sees them, not with human clarity, but with confidence in the goodness and greatness of God. He admits:

“I know that You can do all things, And that no plan is impossible for You. ‘Who is this who conceals advice without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I do not know. ‘Please listen, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.’ I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You; Therefore I retract, And I repent, sitting on dust and ashes.” (Job 42:2-6)

He comes to see things as God sees them.

After the fall, Adam and Eve perceive that they are naked. God’s question: “Who told you that you’re naked?” reflects his perspective that they’re not naked unless he tells them they’re naked. “You’re not naked, because I fixed for you a robe of righteousness.”

Abraham’s perspective is that at age 100, he is too old for children. He sees his and his wife Sarah’s reproductive systems as dead. God’s perspective is:

Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” (Genesis 18:14)

Later, the lens of faith allows Abraham to see a previously unseen ram caught in the thicket and, of course, to see God’s perspective that God will provide: “You should trust me.”

Noah only has the perspective that the Earth has never seen rain, never seen a flood, never needed an ark. God’s view is that wet trouble is coming and that it would be good—both as a symbol of salvation and greatness as well as a real refuge—if a boat could be built. By faith, Noah sees things as God sees them and builds the boat. He uses the technology. And as a result of seeing God’s viewpoint, he sees it via the lens of faith.

Moses sees himself as under ordinary, lacking in the gifts required to do the job he’s called to do. This is his perspective. He’s inarticulate, and he’s insecure. But God’s perspective is “You’re my man to lead the people out of captivity.” God asked him:

“What is that in your hand?” And he said, “A staff.” (Exodus 4:2)

Moses sees a staff, a rod, a wooden stick, a lifeless pole. God sees a symbol of his power. By faith this rod comes to life and becomes a snake. It spreads the Red Sea apart. It brings water from a rock.

What does it take to see things as God sees them? Like Moses, Gideon sees himself as weak and feckless and lacking the standing necessary to deliver his people. God’s point of view is: “You’re the man I need.”

By faith can we come to see others as God sees them? Can we see life as God sees life? How about ourselves? Can we see ourselves from the standpoint that God sees us? There’s a passage that addresses this subject, at least implicitly:

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

What does that actually mean? And how does it apply? Jeremy Meyers commented:

The word confess comes from the Greek word homologeō, and it literally means “to say the same thing.” The word means more than just to admit, proclaim, or declare something. Instead, it has in view a conversation with God or others about what is true, and we agree with them about what they are saying. The opposite of confession is denial (arneomai). When God makes a statement about some truth, we can either agree with God or disagree (John 1:20; 1 John 2:23). Therefore, the word “agree” might be the best translation of homologeō. To confess is to align with what God is saying, or to agree with Him about something. (

Obviously, there are lots of truths we can agree with God about. Almost every statement in Scripture requires us to either agree or disagree. Yet when we study the word confess in Scripture, we discover that confession, or agreement with God, has nothing whatsoever to do with gaining or keeping our eternal life, but rather with aligning ourselves with God’s perspective on things. [In other words, seeing things as God sees them—DW.] If we agree with what God teaches us, then we align ourselves with what God has said, and we begin to make the necessary changes in our lives that come from this agreement. (

If you agree with God, you’re seeing things as God sees them. You share his point of view. Through faith you come to see confession as an agreement with God. What are you agreeing with God about? What is God’s viewpoint that you agree with? You agree, it seems, that you’re a sinner in need of grace. And you agree that God has richly supplied that grace and forgiveness. You see things the same way. You are seeing things as God sees them. Not entirely, and not easily.

And it doesn’t take away the pain; that is for sure.

Two days after Thanksgiving I sat at my brother’s bedside and watched him die. It made no sense and for me it was utterly heartbreaking. Here was a man of sterling reputation and character; generous, gregarious and kind, in many ways in the prime of his life. What I saw was a man broken by cancer, dissipated by disease, and despaired of life. What God saw was a life well lived, an abundant life full of joy and plenty. He loved life, and life loved him.

Can faith open my eyes to see this as God sees it? To God, time is immaterial. Death is but a sleep. Faith opens our eyes. Faith allows us to see things as God sees them.

What are your thoughts about this definition of faith, about this radical idea concerning the ability, in our lives—particularly in times of trouble—to see things as God sees them?

Donald: Can we expect God to give us an explanation as to why things are the way they are? Is that presumptuous to begin with? He’s God, we’re not. Does he owe us an explanation as to why things are the way they are? It seems logical that we, as human beings, would like to understand. But if we pray and we don’t get a response, then we don’t understand God, or we say “Thy will be done.” But we can hope to understand God. We can get together like this and talk and talk about it, and maybe get closer to understanding God’s ways as a group, but another group may totally disagree with our conclusion.

As an illustration, people have a right to say that something is beautiful in their eyes. That’s their understanding of it. But there is a prescribed way of visually orienting yourself to what’s in front of you in such a way that it will be perceived as beautiful. So do you have to know beauty the way the person who understands what beauty is knows it? Or can you just both agree that it’s beautiful, though only one understands the way it was constructed, the composition, lighting, and so on. From the way it was put together, the human response will be “beauty.” So I’m not sure however much thinking, praying, and discussing we do, that we can come to really know what God thinks. God is God.

David: The human perspective of our inability to see through the eyes of God was shown by Jesus himself—Jesus the man on the cross, on the point of death—when he uttered that most poignant of all cries: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” At the very moment of death, as a human, as a man, he did not understand God, he could not see things through the eyes of God. Perhaps that’s a lesson from the Bible that reinforces what Job was told and what Isaiah said: “You will never understand this.” Daoism, by the way, says pretty much the same: Any Dao, any Way, that you can travel, is not the Dao, not the Way.

The problem I have with the analogy of faith as a lens is that we construct the lens. We define faith, and we put trappings on it. We can and do construct lenses in such a way that they can show us pretty much what we want to see. I don’t think we’re capable of creating a lens that matches the lenses in God’s eyes. I really don’t think that we can understand the mind of God—as is definitively stated in the Bible.

Reinhard: Life is a privilege, not a right. Since the fall of Man, we can see our relationship with God slipping away. In the beginning, Adam and Eve had a comfortable life, they had everything. Once they transgressed, the quality of their life declined, but still God kept coming to them to save them. They could still live a normal life and worship God. Same with the Israelites: Until they went into captivity in Babylon, their lives were glorious.

I think this is God’s way of dealing with human beings. Even though they rebel, God keeps coming back, giving them chance after chance. Eventually the Israelites got 70 years in captivity and never recovered their glory days. In the end, salvation is individual, not national. In our spiritual journey, we too are going to go up and down. But as long as we’re going down the right path, it will be OK.

As human beings we have the most intelligence of all God’s creatures. In Job’s case, we wonder why those terrible things happened to him—he did nothing wrong. It was an issue between God and Satan. Job was like a pawn between two powers. God owns us. We cannot challenge him or his purpose. Jobs experience is a story that reveals something of how God runs his business. In the end, God came through for Job.

Jesus was not obligated to heal Lazarus. Jesus did him a favor. He had a close, loving relationship with the family. But there was a point that Jesus wanted to show everybody by coming too late to prevent Lazarus’ death: Namely, his power and glory as the son of God, to raise Lazarus from the dead. He showed that if we stay close to him, good things can happen. Unfortunately our sin brings down calamity. We lose our family members. Life in the garden of Eden is no more, but in the end God still embraces us for as long as we live and we can still have happiness as long as we stay in the right path. In the end, we’re looking for life in the hereafter.

Donald: I was taught that when Jesus said “Why have you forsaken me?” he took on the sins of humanity. Before that he was in constant communion and fellowship with God. “Whatever I do, I do to glorify the father, which is in heaven,” he said. But we live in a very concrete world. And like a father in the very concrete world, when I stumble and fall, his question is: “Tell me what you’ve learned.” And when I go to see through the eyes of the Divine, the question is: “Tell me what you have learned so that I can see what I didn’t see before.”

C-J: It’s a relationship far beyond what the boundaries of our concrete world permit us. I believe real reality is what we cannot see. But we live in the concrete world, in this dimension. And so to see through the eyes of the Creator, is that question: “Tell me what you’ve learned through this experience.” That’s the only way we can get back to God—that, or divine intervention. In a moment, we completely realize that we really aren’t just flesh.

Jay: Seeing as God sees is a pretty big leap for me. It seems almost sacrilegious. We have a lot of biblical references that it is not possible—Isaiah, Paul (“We see through a glass darkly”). Yet throughout the Bible people are asked to do things that would be considered godly, such as building an ark. If a person does not see like God sees, why in the world would s/he do that? Why would Gideon take a small army against a large army, march around Jericho seven times and expect to conquer the city? Even Paul, shipwrecked and tortured and imprisoned, still managed to live what might be considered a godly life.

Matthew is full of stories of people living a godly life—the Good Samaritan, the feeding of the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty, going to the end of the line instead of the beginning of the line, traveling the narrow way instead of the broad way. All of these things are godly actions. How, as human beings, are we expected to be able to do those things if we can’t see or understand them in some way? Maybe faith is a bridge to restore that understanding to some degree. We may be asked to do things that are divine. If we don’t have some kind of reference point by which to see that, are we even capable of it?

Jeff: What does God owe us? It’s a question that’s cropped up many times in my own life. And I guess the problem I have is that if there’s a set of rules that we need to play by in order to win this game, whose ultimate outcome is eternal life or eternal death, then yes: God, in our human estimation, has to give us the set of rules. But yet, it’s clear that that’s not the case; in which case, then our salvation isn’t in our own hands. The final outcome is really up to God, and that’s fine. But then where do we go with that?

I think Jason’s point of doing godly things, or functioning here on Earth as humans in a way that we can display evidence of divinity through our actions or through our lives, is true. But I don’t know that we know that. I don’t know that we know what is divine about that. I’m not sure that we can do it in a way to attain anything, or even consciously do it. Which just totally muddies the whole thing in my mind.

Donald: I think the purpose of it is to find balance in the random chaos in which we live. If we choose the divine in this list of ideals, and we function under that, it serves as a counterweight to the chaos we live in. I would not want to live in a war zone in my entire existence in this dimension. I would not. So I would willingly hold my mouth shut, or walk to the end of the line and say, “You go first,” to find a counterweight to wisdom’s opposite.

Does that make sense? I don’t do it out of the goodness of my heart. I don’t do it to get brownie points and build a stairway to heaven. I do it because I cannot stand, I cannot tolerate, chaos and harm to other entities, whether it’s a tree or humanity. I cannot tolerate the chaos and the carnage.

I think fundamentally we have to ask ourselves: Are we trying to have a relationship with God to obtain eternal life? And in what order does that transpire? Because if you’re trying to earn eternal life, I’m not sure that’s going to work out for you. God says—the Bible is very clear—grace is what prevails, and “Believe in me,” and that’s it.

Jeff: “Believe in me” is a requirement but also a fairly nebulous concept. It’s not a concrete concept, but yet can one will oneself into belief?

Donald: I’m studying the Bible with another group. This past week we went in depth about the idea of election. I had never even really heard of it, had to read it very carefully, and found it very troubling, to be perfectly honest. Because what is predetermined? Jacob and Esau! So that makes this even more complicated if, in fact, the goal is to obtain eternal life. But I don’t think that’s what should drive our faith.

Carolyn: There is a part of me that we’ve left out of the equation. When God left for heaven, He said: “I will send you a comforter. And I will send you someone who will guide you.” And I think we have the whole experience. And that is one of the giant ways that I think God allows us to know his way. The Holy Spirit allows us to hear things. His timing is right. I think we should add the Holy Spirit to this equation, and see where it takes us.

Donald: I could not agree more. We often have conversations about Christ, we have conversations about God, but we rarely have a conversation about the Holy Spirit. Maybe it’s because it’s a mystery, and we tend to avoid that. But I would find that highly valuable.

David: So would I. I think that’s the crux of the whole thing. The Holy Spirit is the Way, the Dao. Can you see it? No, of course, you can’t. Can you see through it? If you see through it at all, it is simply because it is there and you cannot avoid looking through it. The Dao De Jing begins (my translation): “The way that can be seen, the way that can be trodden, the way that looks like a way, is not the constant Way, it is not the Way.” If we try to look for ways to take us through the chaos of life, we will find them and we can follow them, and we do. That’s perhaps why there is some order in chaos, because we look for these ways of order, and we follow them. But are they the Way? Are they the way of God? No, they’re not.

C-J: I think it’s energy, the Holy Spirit. We’re very much limited by language and experience. But this energy is always in flux and when it passes by, or we pass through it, it changes us. Is it a liquid? Is it a solid? Is it a gas? Is it just energy? Is it a vibration? I’ve walked by people who just chill me—”Wow, what was that?” Or I walk into a room and I just feel love in this room and nobody’s talking or in the act of doing anything special, but I feel a presence of this energy that makes me feel warm and safe.

I think we all look for that. And that points us to that meter of safe / unsafe, good / not good—the counterbalance. Going back to the Holy Spirit, that’s what we all seek. “Where is the divine? How can I commune with the divine? What does that mean for me in my transformation?”

Jay: As human beings we really have a problem with the issue of the elect and the idea of predetermination. We really fight against it. My question would be why, if God’s in control, if God predetermines, if God elects, do we think it’s going to be wrong? Do we think he’s not going to do it right? Do we think he’s going to mess it up? In the end, to be predestined, to be elected, to be whatever the case may be—is that really a bad thing?

What we’ve done with our theology, in my opinion, is a real bad thing: We’ve linked choice to love. We think free will to choose is the ultimate act of God’s love for us. We’ve linked these two things subconsciously in our minds. Does a small child have a lot of choice? Do you give children the free will to do whatever they want? As Caroline has said many times in this class, we are to be as children. Maybe what that means is not about how trusting children are, or about how they love unconditionally; rather, it is that they accept the will of the Father very, very easily.

Donald: But I think there’s an accountability. It goes back to “What have you learned?” And what is the divine calling us to do? To be in communion, to be in fellowship, to become wise where we were foolish. I struggled with election too, because this is “before the foundations of the earth, I knew you.” If he’s the Creator and he knows all, did he create me knowing I’m going to fail in this paradigm? Does he have mercy on that? Think of that whole idea of purgatory for certain beliefs that fall within that range of Christian identity.

C-J: I just think we missed the mark. I think we got stuck in cement and it solidified. I think that there’s so much beyond that, because experientially, with a divine and by the Holy Spirit, it just doesn’t fit. It just makes absolutely no sense. If the divine is all-loving and nurturing and wants us to succeed, why would that be a caveat? Why would that even be in the mix? It’s a question mark for me; one of those stumbling blocks I just step around or over.

Jay: It’s where language also hinders us a little bit. We define what failure is, we define what love is and how love should act and what love does. There’s no doubt that as human beings we see through the glass dimly. I’m not saying we’re way off the mark, that we got it totally wrong. But I’m not saying that we understand it completely either. Does God see failure as we see failure? What about pain?

This is sort of Daoist: There’s not too much you can do about it. The Way is the Way, it goes where it goes, it does what it does. If we want to apply that to our Christian viewpoint, God is God, he does what he does, and he goes where he goes. In the end, if God is love, if God is grace, if he’s forgiveness, if he’s goodness, if he is all those things, then what a great blessing that is. Please, God, do whatever it is that you do.

Donald: I maintain that while everybody wants to condemn Judas, he was a necessary piece on the chessboard. It took a tremendous amount of grace if the divine plan was in play. I can’t imagine such grace: “I have a really important mission for you to do and you’re not going to return from it. But I’d really appreciate it if you’d cooperate.” And he responds: “Thy will be done.” Yes, he punished himself for being obedient unto the Lord.

C-J: You really can’t judge what society says and put a label on it and say, “They’re a lesser being among humanity” or “Glad I wasn’t born there… there but for the grace of God go I.” I agree there is a problem in the paradigm of how that is structured. When the unbeliever comes to us and says, “You’re fairly nice people but I think you’ve got a few glaring problems here in this idea but I’ve never found a person of your belief system who can really address them in depth.” It is just part of what we do. We don’t question God, but I think we are supposed to.

Donald: So do the ideas of the Way and election align? It is what it is?

Reinhard: We all have the holy spirit (except, maybe, people who don’t believe in God.) Once we accept Jesus, as in Galatians 5:22, the fruit of the Spirit is joy, peace, and so on. So I think it depends on the level of our faith. I think God takes into account that some people may have but little knowledge about him, and makes allowances.

As for predetermination: It is almost equal with the name written in the Book of Life. Even David mentioned that he’s afraid that his name would be taken out of the Book. So even though predetermination is already there, just as the name is already in the Book of Life, it’s not guaranteed. It depends on our behavior, on our relationship with God. When the disciples did great things one time, the last word from Jesus was about names written in the Book of Life. I think that’s the key.

Proverbs tells us:

Do not let kindness and truth leave you; Bind them around your neck, Write them on the tablet of your heart. (Proverbs 3:3)

Loving God and our fellow Man is the key belief. The first three mentions of love and faithfulness complement each other. Once we have love for each other, I would say automatically we have faith in God. I think we see the goodness in people. We talk about godly people. I don’t consider myself to be at the godly level but in my experience, especially in my association with Oakwood church for so many years, I can say that I have seen a lot of godly people. The majority of members are so compassionate.

Judging carries a negative connotation but I think I can judge people in a positive way. I have met many godly people in both the US and in Indonesia—members of the church—who show their faith by example. We can see the fruit of the spirit in their life. They show goodness in how they interact, in the way they talk, and in the way they find solutions for the needy. That’s what we need. I believe there’s a lot of love of God in people. I can see it in our church members.

If we have the Spirit of God in us, no matter how much or how little, God knows the state of our relationship with him when deciding who’s going to be chosen to go to heaven. God knows our level of faith and how we treat our fellow Man.

C-J: It is interesting that the Bible originated in an oral tradition and was put to paper or parchment at some point. But I think it would be really interesting if we were the generation where the Messiah appears. What stories and miracles would there be, and how would the Messiah be perceived on all the media platforms? I think it would change so many things in terms of how we see it, time and place, how we see ourselves, because we are very interconnected.

The world during the time of Jesus was 20 miles wide for most people—a day’s walking distance. There was a lot of physical labor, and life was pretty basic. There weren’t a lot of distractions or intrusions. Life was predictable and short. But today we have so many interventions and distractions. I think it would be very interesting to meet this man, the spiritual teacher that we claim as our Messiah, the Son of God.

I can’t imagine what it would be like to invite him to dinner, but I think it would lead to a very different interpretation of him and the faith that would grow out of it. The language that would be used and the stories that would be told would be very different. Science would be part of the conversation—today we can actually measure energy vibrations and things we don’t see with the naked eye. How does God reveal the divine?

I just think it would be a completely different story and text.

Kiran: I wonder why this definition of faith is not a problem for me. I see the contrary point of view, but this definition gives me so much peace. I don’t understand why. I look at my relationship with God this way: I never tried to reach God. He tried to reach me, and all I had to do was respond. In that response, I agreed that I was a miserable man and I needed help. That’s all I did. Nothing else. All my efforts to be a better person failed, and I saw the propensity to do great damage to the society and to my family and everybody. I didn’t like myself. I was already bored with my life, thinking it pointless to get married, get a job, make money. I didn’t understand how anyone could live like this.

But what I received was the realization that there is this inner light through which God reaches out to us in specific moments, I don’t think he reached out to me all the time. He reached out to me when I was most vulnerable and helpless. And I agreed with him. That is the contrast in John 1:4 and John 1:9 makes sense—I agreed with him that I’m a miserable man and I need help.

I cannot know what it is to understand the mind of God, as a little child cannot understand what’s in the mind of its parent, but that does not mean the parent should stop trying to show the child the way a hot stove works. The child cannot understand the science behind a hot stove and so on. The parent does not need to explain the science to the child, but the child can learn to the point where s/he can be safe from hot stoves.

So I look at this definition with the humble acknowledgment that I can never understand the mind of God, because the more I grow in him, the more he grows, and since he’s infinite, there is no stopping for him. But at the same time, in this world of chaos, in this fallen world, where we have the knowledge of good and evil, where we are terrified by our own ability to do greater evil, it gives us peace to understand that he’s good. At the end of the day, whatever happens, we should be okay with that, because he is good. He has the ability to do great evil, he could destroy the whole world, but he chose not to do that.

He also chose to love me and reach down to me, and gave me a choice. It’s extremely hard for me not to agree with him. He made it that way. It’s so easy, it’s almost like cheating! That’s why I feel okay with this definition. I’ll keep trying to understand the contrary point of view, but for me, this definition is good.

Bryan: Faith is something I’ve been struggling with because it’s considered to be a tool. If we use faith as a way to measure our relationship with God, I think we’re setting ourselves up for nothing but disappointment, and it’s very easy to become disappointed with God because he is not doing the things that we think he should be doing because of our faith.

In my estimation faith is used as a tool to ask God for things. The Bible says if you have faith, you can move mountains. What does that mean? Does it have any real bearing on life? Should we start to look for a relationship with God outside of everyday life and the things that life deals us? Because life isn’t fair. It wasn’t fair to God, who had to lose his only son to save his creation. It wasn’t fair to Jesus when he was here on Earth. Life isn’t fair, and faith doesn’t make it fair. Thus, faith becomes a relationship with God for the purpose of salvation, not to make life on Earth better.

The conundrum is that we’re so used to asking God for things through prayer: Bless this food, keep our kids safe, give us a safe trip, keep me healthy. Those are things we commonly ask God for. The difficulty for me is how do we pray without asking for things? What do we say? How do you leave your disappointment with God behind, for the things that you see as unfair? How do you move past that, to a relationship that you can use to get to the kingdom?

David: I still can’t understand why Jesus included certain lines in the Lord’s Prayer. To me, you could end the Lord’s Prayer at “Thy will be done. Amen” That way, you remove that problem of expecting your daily bread and so forth. You have no right to expect that.

Don: Don’t despair, everyone will come to some enlightenment, I’m confident. When and how, I’m not sure!

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